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my name is ross coulthard and my colleague and\h
crime and good buddy is bryce zabel in los angeles\h\h

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how are you bryce i'm doing great it's great to\h
be here and by the way um for those of you who are\h\h

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keeping count this is our fifth uh need to know\h
podcast and russ people said it wouldn't last but\h\h

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we made it a month now bryce i've got a guilty\h
pleasure to confess in the middle of the night\h\h

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i'm known to go to my computer and look at quite\h
profound images on my computer and it's not what\h\h

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you think i am obsessed absolutely obsessed with\h
the james webb telescope oh thank god thank god\h\h

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you said that i was okay all right okay right\h
right now about a 863 000 miles away there is this\h\h

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absolute miracle of human engineering it's a\h
marvel scientific enterprise power excellence\h\h

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it's chugging its way to an orbit\h
that'll be a million miles away\h\h

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on the other side of the moon away from the\h
glare of the sun and the reflection of the earth\h\h

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and it's going to do amazing things and i i guess\h
at these somewhat dark times when we're looking at\h\h

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putin amassing troops on the border with the\h
ukraine president z getting increasingly bellicose\h\h

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over taiwan i think it's good to remind ourselves\h
that there are some pretty amazing things in\h\h

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the world and the the james webb telescope is\h
just such a a miracle of modern engineering and\h\h

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fingers crossed crossed touch wood i hope it gets\h
there and i hope soon we're seeing images that\h\h

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may very well record interesting things perhaps\h
even evidence of other non-intel other intelligent\h\h

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non-human life well it's it's certainly something\h
to look forward to and let's just hope that it's\h\h

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so complex but we're all got our fingers crossed\h
that it gets where it needs to be and it unfolds\h\h

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and aligns properly i have to say uh if we're\h
giving a shout out to the james webb telescope i\h\h

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want to give one to the hubble telescope because\h
over the years the hubble has just given us\h\h

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through nasa making them public domain images just\h
a host of the most spectacular images that you can\h\h

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imagine looking out into space and we all remember\h
that it was 1968 when that first picture uh taken\h\h

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from the moon of the earth the famous earthrise uh\h
picture uh made everyone feel like wow we maybe we\h\h

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are just one on one one planet and i think that\h
the hubble has extended that language for us\h\h

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by showing us a chance to see just how vast the\h
universe is how incredibly intricate it is how\h\h

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amazing our universe is and and if indeed the\h
james webb is an escalation of that oh my i mean\h\h

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i i can't wait i hope it i hope it lives up to\h
all expectations whether it reveals other forms of\h\h

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life out there or not i'm sure it's going to give\h
us some pretty awesome pictures so i'm looking\h\h

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forward to that at the very least now bryce\h
let's roll back to amazing things that happened\h\h

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77 years ago it's the darkest days of world war ii\h
and brave bomber pilots from bomber command in the\h\h

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uk brave young american lads and british lads\h
are flying their bombers across western europe\h\h

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and all of a sudden out of the inky darkness as\h
if being frightened of potential nazi fighters\h\h

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isn't enough they start seeing these weird\h
orbs these spheres often sometimes disc shaped\h\h

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glowing or metallic and they call them foo\h
fighters and they're a mystery today as much as\h\h

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they were back then and is it fair to say do you\h
reckon that that was perhaps the beginning of the\h\h

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the modern flying saucer era i think that if\h
we're going to get a calendar out and say when\h\h

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did we tip over into the world that we're sort of\h
living in today it would be world war ii which is\h\h

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a demarcation line for practically everything\h
and possibly in a future podcast we'll get into\h\h

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the ancient aliens aspect of all this but for for\h
our purposes i would say 1945 and the foo fighters\h\h

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uh and and the fact that american pilots saw these\h
things and thought that they were german but after\h\h

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the war we realized the germans thought they\h
were ours and nobody had any idea who's they were\h\h

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that makes it a pretty profound thing that was\h
happening even in the final days of world war\h\h

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ii and of course foo fighters um also gave\h
us the name of the band so that was a good\h\h

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added bonus so all good uh i want you to bear in\h
mind listeners the key observations that were made\h\h

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by pilots that saw these things the air crew that\h
saw these things back during the second world war\h\h

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they were wingless they were tailless\h
they had no visible exhaust no visible\h\h

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propulsion system and then roll forward a\h
year i've been doing some research price into\h\h

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what were called ghost rockets which were\h
these thousands of objects cited all over\h\h

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scandinavia in 1946 a year after the war ended\h
and all over scandinavia there was a almost\h\h

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a public panic that occurred in the summer of\h
1946 across scandinavia sweden finland norway\h\h

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people were seeing these weird objects that were\h
in the sky no wings no tails same thing again\h\h

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and they sometimes described them as\h
having a fiery tale but they were all\h\h

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consistently described doing incredible maneuvers\h
tight turns extreme speeds turning on a dime\h\h

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and they were never ever properly explained\h
they never were and in fact the united states\h\h

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sent some of our top generals over there\h
including doolittle to look into it\h\h

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and uh while this swedish government did look\h
very heavily into this and there were thousands of\h\h

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these sightings as you mentioned there were even\h
reports of landings and and all kinds of maneuvers\h\h

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the swedish government at the end of that at least\h
released the announce of their investigation many\h\h

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of our memos that were written got classified some\h
of them for many many years but the swedes said\h\h

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this doesn't look to be russian it doesn't look to\h
be any technology that we're capable of generating\h\h

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here on earth at this time so they took a position\h
that even back then we were talking about some\h\h

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kind of uh otherworldly kind of technology and\h
i think that one of the things we wanted to do\h\h

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with need to know is sort of give people context\h
as we kind of build out toward uh at least trying\h\h

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to explain where we are and where we might be\h
going with this phenomenon think of it this way\h\h

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folks 1945 uh you've got the world of world war ii\h
you've got german and american and british pilots\h\h

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all reporting things that they call foo fighters\h
and it's not incidental it's not a small thing\h\h

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it's a big thing lots and lots of reports the war\h
ends we we blow up two nuclear bombs uh over japan\h\h

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but life goes on except less than a year later\h
we start getting these ghost rockets in sweden of\h\h

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all places why sweden no one really knows and what\h
we'll be getting to later in this program is when\h\h

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the united states sort of ticked off its beginning\h
in 1947 but for now let's pivot back to 1946 in\h\h

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these ghost rockets because ross i'm really kind\h
of interested in what you're turning up these days\h\h

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yeah well i've been doing a lot of work on it\h
bryce because i'm now an academic my friend\h\h

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i've been invited by a danish political history\h
magazine and i don't speak danish so they're\h\h

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going to do the translation for me to write\h
a paper for them about the uap phenomenon i\h\h

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thought it would be a really good thing to\h
look at the ghost rockets and the thing that\h\h

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really strikes me and the rejoinder i often make\h
to people when they often say the debunkers or the\h\h

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skeptics they often say oh how come how come\h
there's nothing in history to show that you\h\h

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know this has always been around how come these\h
ufos are only only turning up now they weren't\h\h

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and the fascinating thing about these foo fighters\h
these ghost rockets in 45 44 46 is a lot of the\h\h

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descriptions of them accord with what are now\h
being referred to as the cylindrical tic tac white\h\h

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metallic shaped craft that was recorded by the\h
us navy in 2004 and indeed more subsequently uh\h\h

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in ways that can now no longer be refuted by\h
the debunkers and the skeptics and i i went back\h\h

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there's a guy called timothy good who did some\h
fantastic work in a book in a book called funnily\h\h

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enough need to know and he wrote he wrote he wrote\h
a great book he just basically explored the early\h\h

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history and went through the american archives and\h
he found an american archival document that said\h\h

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from sweden's air intelligence service that\h
these foo fighters this phenomena quote are\h\h

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obviously the result of a high technical skill\h
which cannot be credited to any known culture\h\h

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on earth that was the swedish intelligence\h
services that's what i'm that's what i'm saying\h\h

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i mean when you that's black and white that's in a\h
report that uh you can look up right now and read\h\h

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and for them to say that it's not like\h
they didn't exhaust the other options\h\h

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of course everyone back then the first thought was\h
well it must be the russians maybe they absconded\h\h

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with these german scientists and they've cooked\h
up these things but the technology never continued\h\h

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in that same way from that same point in time they\h
were kind of a one-off at that particular moment\h\h

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and certainly nobody thought russia in 1946 after\h
fighting a war where their country was strained\h\h

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to the max and where 20 million i believe of their\h
citizens died no one seriously thought russia and\h\h

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a few german scientists were doing these things\h
and they certainly weren't making things that\h\h

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were capable of what you just described what we've\h
heard described about the tic tacs recently same\h\h

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kind of words same kind of descriptions back\h
then very mysterious and um and and mysterious\h\h

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today in other words what i find interesting\h
and the reason that we wanted to sort of start\h\h

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with this folks is that here you have a situation\h
where we're we're hearing the same kind of words\h\h

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used to describe this phenomenon back in 1946 that\h
we heard in 2021 in the uap preliminary report\h\h

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i wish we'd made more progress toward this and i\h
wish people had paid more attention back in 1946\h\h

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and and talked about this openly although i think\h
ross you would probably agree the people who were\h\h

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investigating it for the united states probably\h
did pay a lot of attention to it they just didn't\h\h

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bring the rest of the public in on well i've got\h
a theory bryce i have a theory that for the vast\h\h

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bulk of the military in all of these western\h
countries that are dealing with the phenomenon\h\h

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okay there are a few people that i suspect know\h
a hell of a lot more than they're letting on\h\h

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but i suspect more often than not they\h
just don't like admitting they have no\h\h

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bloody idea what these objects are and so they\h
they contrived to come up with explanations\h\h

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and back in 4647 the explanation that was\h
given by the swedish intelligence services\h\h

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and the us air force was that everybody\h
was wrong they were misguided because\h\h

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a missile without wings is unable to maintain\h
a constant altitude over hilly terrain\h\h

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you know therefore that they must have all been\h
deluded and of course it was 40 more years before\h\h

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radar hugging terrain hugging cruise missiles\h
were developed by the us military whatever this\h\h

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was was technology far beyond that era and i\h
find it interesting because as i think you know\h\h

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better than i there's there's been some really\h
interesting sightings over sweden in the last few\h\h

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days and and they've been referred to the semantic\h
label interests me they've been referred to not\h\h

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as uaps they've immediately been defaulted to in\h
the same way back in 46 they were called rockets\h\h

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ghost rockets and they weren't really rockets\h
at all what are they calling them this time\h\h

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they're calling them drones aren't they yes\h
and what i think is very interesting is when\h\h

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they called them ghost rockets they were neither\h
ghostly nor rockets as you pointed out that was\h\h

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just a phrase that attached to them but certainly\h
the behavior that ascribed to the this phenomena\h\h

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was hardly rocket-like uh i think maybe it\h
was a because it there was a belief that uh\h\h

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earthly powers had to make them and we were\h
making rockets at the end of world war ii\h\h

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um and now of course you're right it's drones and\h
i think the one message that people should hear\h\h

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and and and that we should admit is nobody\h
is ever saying that all of anything is uh\h\h

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on this scale as being paranormal or abnormal or\h
otherworldly there are lots of drones out there\h\h

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today and these drones are a terrible problem for\h
various militaries but drones do not explain the\h\h

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behavior that people are seeing all over the world\h
right now uh any more than uh rockets explain the\h\h

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behavior that they were seeing in sweden and\h
soon uh to come in your country australia and\h\h

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my country united states uh just a year after the\h
the ghost rocket so we there's something going on\h\h

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here what it is ain't exactly clear yeah and so\h
that to me is a key point that often throughout\h\h

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history there's been a default use of semantics\h
to try to make whatever these objects are\h\h

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sound prosaic when really they weren't rockets\h
the evidence is overwhelming that back in 1946\h\h

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whatever it was wasn't a rocket it didn't display\h
the characteristics of a rocket and roll forward\h\h

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to today right now in sweden there's an admission\h
that whatever this is they don't behave like\h\h

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normal drones and i think we're probably coming\h
to the end of the first segment of need to know so\h\h

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i think we'd better wrap and we'll come back with\h
more in a moment more on need to know about what i\h\h

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think we'll call the summer of 1947. i'll tell you\h
one better let's call it the summer of the saucers

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we're kind of taking a chronological view of\h
the early days of this phenomenon uh of course\h\h

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we talked about the foo fighters of 1944 1945 we\h
talked about the ghost rockets that appeared over\h\h

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sweden in 1946 and now we're going to move into\h
1947 which frankly uh is the one that most history\h\h

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books acknowledge as the time when the whole ufo\h
topic took off but it wasn't called ufos back then\h\h

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they were called flying saucers and 1947 is a\h
major major year because not only uh is it uh a\h\h

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time when the very first major american sighting\h
happened and it ricocheted around the world's\h\h

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media but for our purposes right now we want to\h
talk about it because it's a good anniversary 75\h\h

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years since this event happened and we'll tell\h
you about that event in a second one thing i'd\h\h

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like to point out the average human lifespan is\h
73 or 74 years it's been a little affected by the\h\h

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coronavirus but what that means is this phenomenon\h
uh has been going on longer than a human lifetime\h\h

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and we're still essentially knocking about in the\h
dark and it's probably time for that to end so\h\h

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ross i look forward to uh walking through\h
down memory lane on on 1947 what say you\h\h

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i'm going to stake a flag here bryce i'm going\h
to make a claim i think that the first incident\h\h

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in the summer of the sources in 1947\h
was interestingly enough in australia\h\h

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roll back roll back to february 1947 because\h
when i was going through the australian national\h\h

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archives i was amazed to find a series of\h
incidents of sightings of what appear to be\h\h

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the same objects there's a farmer way way down\h
in southern australia south australia on what's\h\h

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called the air peninsula and he's looking out\h
over the ocean and he gave a very clear account\h\h

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of what he saw his name was flavelle and he saw\h
five oblong egg-shaped dare i say tic-tac-shaped\h\h

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objects coming up out of the sea with a kind of a\h
smoky bluey grayish cloud around them interesting\h\h

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huh but it gets better because about uh 260\h
kilometers to the northeast of where he saw them\h\h

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about an hour later three workers are sitting\h
in a factory and there's actually two different\h\h

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groups of workers in the same factory who each\h
independently corroborated each other they also\h\h

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see five oblong egg-shaped objects metallic\h
sort of surface on them zooming overhead\h\h

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it gets better though because two months\h
two months later that'd be probably\h\h

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maybe april and this is getting close to the big\h
incident that took place in the us april 1947\h\h

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a farmer looks up and he's a clever fella i think\h
he'd seen military service and so he was able to\h\h

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estimate the speed of these objects he estimated\h
what he saw at at least a thousand miles an hour\h\h

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and again five oblong egg-shaped objects in\h
formation flying along very low to the ground\h\h

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zooming past him on his tractor as he was in his\h
fields and so there we are mate it all started in\h\h

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australia i i don't know i think you're right\h
there's some great cases before the june 24th\h\h

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kenneth arnold sighting which i'm going to\h
unpack in a moment but ross i got to tell\h\h

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you you are such a fine storyteller i think we\h
should write the need to know children's book\h\h

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and you should narrate it for audible because uh\h
i'm sure we'll make a killing with that listen not\h\h

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only are you right about that but you're really\h
right uh there were sightings around the world\h\h

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uh in 1947 it began an uptick they were isolated\h
though there were a few in the united states but\h\h

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as i said june 24th is the red letter day in the\h
united states but prior to june 24th here in the\h\h

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united states i just wrote down a few of the cases\h
there was a june 2nd sighting in delaware the 12th\h\h

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in idaho the 21st in spokane washington so iowa\h
bakersfield on the 23rd so the point i i guess i'm\h\h

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making is that prior to where we the the the media\h
and the calendar say this is where it all began\h\h

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it had already all begun june 24th kenneth\h
arnold who was an idaho native i believe and\h\h

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he's a private pilot he takes off in his plane to\h
look in the mount rainier area of washington state\h\h

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because a a major military aircraft had gone\h
down there earlier and they were offering a five\h\h

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thousand dollar reward if anybody could find\h
it so he thought that would be a pretty fine\h\h

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thing if he could find it he didn't find it but\h
what he found was something very similar to your\h\h

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australian sighting uh instead of egg-shaped\h
objects though he saw nine uh objects uh and\h\h

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they were traveling uh i i guess he would call\h
them he called them shaped in in some reports they\h\h

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were traveling according to him and he knew how to\h
do this uh by by spotting uh in the distance his\h\h

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first number came up at 1700 miles per hour which\h
he thought well that's just crazy that can't even\h\h

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be so he put all the lower numbers in and came up\h
with 1200 miles per hour which was still pretty\h\h

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extreme these nine craft were flying in formation\h
and uh it it made quite an impact on him he landed\h\h

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uh he told the people at the airport there about\h
it then he got back in his plane and flew on to\h\h

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idaho and when he got off his uh plane in idaho\h
there were media people there wanting to talk\h\h

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about it now what what has led to a little bit\h
of confusion over the years is arnold described\h\h

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the motion of this craft not i mean he described\h
the motion not the look originally and said it was\h\h

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skipping along like a saucer would if you if it\h
was skipping over water but of course the media\h\h

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immediately started calling them flying saucers\h
and and frankly that caught on and just ricocheted\h\h

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worldwide and the thing about it is it did start\h
people thinking about it uh it it made everybody\h\h

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talk about it it was a certifiable big thing\h
and more people started seeing things but\h\h

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you could only attribute a little bit of that\h
to the idea that well maybe they were making it\h\h

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up or maybe they had war nerves or whatever was\h
said at the time but there were sightings after\h\h

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sightings after sightings around this time and of\h
course which we'll get to in a minute uh a couple\h\h

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of weeks later or less there was roswell in new\h
mexico so back to you okay well the thing that\h\h

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fascinates me and i always love coming back to\h
dusty archives because they're like a definitive\h\h

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record of what's really was going on at the time\h
and the archives record i think in early 1947\h\h

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general nathan twining wrote a memo about this\h
era where he basically said whatever it is it's\h\h

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real if you've got the quote i do have the quote\h
here i'll tell you you know we have the um the\h\h

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trail of the saucers site on medium where people\h
we write articles and one of our most popular\h\h

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ones was the one about nathan twining saying the\h
1947 twining ufo memo still matters and here's why\h\h

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after an entire summer of this on september\h
24th which he's technically only three days out\h\h

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of summer then uh general nathan twining who was\h
head of the u.s air force material command which\h\h

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was a very big deal and he had been tasked to to\h
bring all this information together and reach some\h\h

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conclusions his conclusion based on talking to\h
all the people who had reported to him was quote\h\h

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the phenomenon reported is something real and not\h
visionary or fictitious now that again sounds to\h\h

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me very similar to what the uap report that we got\h
75 years later but one other thing i just wanted\h\h

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to read from his report because it's important\h
to understand what he was actually describing\h\h

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what people were describing to the air force\h
they were seeing because you asked about\h\h

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well what did they look like it's it's uh it's\h
also what they did uh in in the clear language\h\h

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of his report he writes the reported operating\h
characteristics such as extreme rates of climb\h\h

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maneuverability particularly in role and action\h
which must be considered evasive when cited\h\h

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lend belief to the possibility that some of\h
the objects are controlled either manually\h\h

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automatically or remotely so some kind\h
of intelligent control of these objects\h\h

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and this was the conclusion of the highest levels\h
of the united states air force in 1947. now again\h\h

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the the twining memo is kind of a big deal there's\h
another memo out from that time that basically\h\h

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says the same thing from a sholgen a general\h
shulgan and in between though in order to get\h\h

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there uh all kinds of things was were happening in\h
the united states but also around the world as you\h\h

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pointed out you could easily say that from a ufo\h
sighting point of view all hell was breaking loose\h\h

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but the one thing i want to point out and i\h
said it earlier but i want to underline it\h\h

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you can't just throw them all out and say well\h
you know people were a little on nerves after\h\h

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world war ii and maybe they were seeing things\h
or they read it in the media and they wanted to\h\h

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make some conclusions about that and maybe maybe\h
they wanted to bring up things but the truth\h\h

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of the matter is i'll give you two things that\h
happened in that summer prior to that memo being\h\h

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written on july 4th a couple of united airlines\h
pilots saw something rather large following them\h\h

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for a very long time uh they talked about it and\h
let's face it these are united airlines pilots\h\h

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they were not uh they were good at witnesses and\h
there are others on on board and the day after\h\h

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that uh in oak ridge tennessee which happens to\h
be a nuclear facility in the united states a very\h\h

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important one at that time they saw these objects\h
uh in overflight above the oak ridge facility so\h\h

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those are those are not average citizens just out\h
to get in the local newspapers those are united\h\h

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airlines employees and employees of the united\h
states government tasked with watching over\h\h

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uh what we are doing with our nuclear assets\h
so it was a pretty hop in time in 1947.\h\h

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now yeah i don't want to get bogged down in\h
this bryce because i know you want to talk\h\h

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about roswell but i think it's significant that\h
this and i love this moment in american history\h\h

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because there's something about that post-war era\h
people had so much trust in their military but the\h\h

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military also was whilst it was so highly regarded\h
it was so candid i mean that memo from nathan\h\h

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twining the general is quite extraordinary because\h
it's a level of candor that we haven't seen\h\h

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in 70 years yes but but russell i said it i'm\h
sorry to interrupt i just here's the thing though\h\h

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yes it's a candid memo but it was not written\h
to be shared with the public it was written only\h\h

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for the military and that twining memo was not\h
revealed to the united states public until 1975\h\h

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when during a period of some openness the\h
freedom of information act allowed a lot of\h\h

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ufo researchers to get their hands on things so\h
even then and and crucially the other point i\h\h

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would want to make is that yes you're right that\h
memo was written in secrecy right publicly and\h\h

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this is the interesting thing publicly the us\h
air force when it became the us air force in 47\h\h

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was pushing the line that all of this was just\h
a big fuss about nothing yeah that frankly the\h\h

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public were misguided they were saying publicly\h
that the public alarm was completely and utterly\h\h

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out of control there was no need for it everybody\h
was misidentifying things it was all prosaically\h\h

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explained frankly that was a lie well not only it\h
yes it was and that's one of the reasons i really\h\h

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responded to your book in plain sight because\h
one of the things you point out uh over and over\h\h

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is why governments not just the united states\h
government but other governments around the world\h\h

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were saying one thing they were uh to the public\h
they were saying another thing to themselves\h\h

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and that is kind of the definition of lying\h
if you believe one thing but you're not\h\h

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being honest about it uh one other thing struck\h
me as you said uh you you tossed off that in 1947\h\h

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that's when the air force was created here's\h
one other reason 1947 is a red letter date\h\h

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in uh ufo and security history in 1947 it was\h
the creation of the united states air force it in\h\h

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during world war ii the air power that helped win\h
that war was the army air force and it became its\h\h

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own branch of the government in 1947 but that's\h
not all folks in 1947 is also the time that we\h\h

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created the central intelligence agency here in\h
the united states and it's also the same year that\h\h

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we created the national security agency in the\h
united states so yes there was a lot of reason to\h\h

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to think about reorganizing for future\h
conflict because of world war ii but maybe\h\h

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there was even more at work one of the things\h
by the way as you start to read these things\h\h

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you realize harry truman who was president at the\h
time and was until 19 the january of 1953 he only\h\h

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made a couple of statements about ufos uh one\h
of them was he said well to the extent that ufo\h\h

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flying saucers are real uh i'm paraphrasing i can\h
guarantee that we don't make them which was also\h\h

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true today and also reflected in the uap report\h
we just saw but harry truman demanded that he be\h\h

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briefed on ufos every three months and was briefed\h
every three months orally nothing was ever written\h\h

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down which by the way is as you know ross from\h
security uh points of view uh nothing written\h\h

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it's better to to keep it in uh in oral discussion\h
so here's truman uh who if there was nothing to\h\h

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flying saucers and there's no big deal about it\h
i don't know why you needed a regular briefing\h\h

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that doesn't seem to make sense so you've got the\h
cia the air force and the nsa all created in 1947\h\h

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but there was one other event wasn't there bryce\h
you tell me what happened well listen to that july\h\h

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4th weekend yeah that's true americans were you\h
know rightfully celebrating their freedoms in 1947\h\h

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they had fought hard and shed a lot of blood and\h
treasure to guarantee those so during the fourth\h\h

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of july weekend they were pretty happy to be\h
having barbecues and getting back to normal life\h\h

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and that's also the time right smack in the\h
middle of this crazy summer of 1947 that\h\h

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something crashed outside of roswell new mexico\h
there's no doubt that something crashed that's\h\h

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what's interesting about the story we can we can\h
certainly talk about roswell and whether we should\h\h

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or should not believe it was the crash of the ufo\h
but i will tell you this in july of 1947 uh the\h\h

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the u.s air force base there went out and\h
picked up something they put out a press\h\h

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release saying they had captured a flying disk\h
and three three hours later they took it back\h\h

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so kind of an interesting thing to have happen uh\h
in the in the middle of this and over the years\h\h

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more and more people have come forward and\h
talked about it family members have talked\h\h

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about how their their loved ones told them what\h
had happened uh it's it's a pretty solid case uh\h\h

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by any stretch of the imagination because to not\h
believe in roswell uh you'd have to believe that\h\h

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intelligence officers who were tasked with\h
understanding everything about what we might\h\h

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face from an enemy so mistook a weather balloon\h
that they thought it was a flying saucer and\h\h

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these people you know this was their job i\h
mean i i find roswell fascinating and i think\h\h

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we should go into roswell in a bit more detail\h
let's take a break now and come back with more\h\h

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on need to know in a moment about the roswell\h
crash the origin myth of modern ufology

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so bryce we were talking about the greatest\h
incident in ufo mythology the roswell\h\h

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crash so-called take me to a dark night sometime\h
in june july 1947 what happened oh my god when you\h\h

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talk like that ross it makes me say i'll just\h
i'm going to just go downstairs and get a coke\h\h

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and i'll just let you finish this out that's too\h
good ross you're the storyteller tell us the story\h\h

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of roswell well what we do know bryce for sure is\h
that just after that fourth of july weekend on or\h\h

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around the fifth of july 1947 a farm manager named\h
mack brazil was touring the farm and found what\h\h

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he called crash debris a huge furrow that looked\h
like something huge had hit the ground and carved\h\h

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a gouge across the farm that he was looking after\h
and he took some of that debris into the local\h\h

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police and it was eventually taken to the army\h
air force base at the roswell 504th army bomb wing\h\h

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and then all hell broke loose a press release was\h
issued later that day by the army stating that\h\h

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the army had recovered a flying disk listen i the\h
one thing i would have to say is you referred to\h\h

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roswell as the original myth and in a way i know\h
you don't mean it that way but myth strikes me as\h\h

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sounding almost like well it didn't happen it was\h
a myth i and i look at roswell as the original sin\h\h

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of the ufo cover-up um let me let me put a little\h
pin on that um i think what happened at roswell\h\h

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and then we'll get into some you can tell that\h
beautiful story uh that you started there i think\h\h

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what happened at roswell is something did happen\h
uh i think it was otherworldly and i think that\h\h

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it was early on and there wasn't a good reporting\h
structure for how to deal with this and they kind\h\h

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of uh botched it a little bit and then they tried\h
to take it back and what ended up happening is\h\h

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they discovered uh what they would need to do to\h
keep this thing uh in the box and that was the\h\h

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twin pillars i think of of keeping ufos uh highly\h
classified and in that box and those pillars were\h\h

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denial and ridicule so the first thing that they\h
discovered was denial that didn't happen it was\h\h

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a weather balloon and then ridiculed came it to\h
to pass over the next few years and pretty soon\h\h

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not only was roswell forgotten but anybody\h
that even saw a flying saucer by the time we\h\h

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hit the mid 50s is being marginalized for being a\h
little bit crazy so to me it's the original can i\h\h

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can i interrupt for a moment here i i i my my\h
reading i i don't know what to make of roswell but\h\h

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on my reading mac brazil the farmer who\h
allegedly found this wreckage in june july\h\h

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1947 and took it in to the local police\h
and it eventually got delivered to the\h\h

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army air force all he found were metallic foil\h
strange lightweight beams with writing on them\h\h

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none of that sounds like a flying saucer you know\h
nothing sounds like a craft or anything like that\h\h

326
00:36:55,040 --> 00:37:01,920
so as i understand it the thing that always leapt\h
out at me was if all he found on the ground at\h\h

327
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:10,080
the time were strange bits of foil and strange\h
lightweight beams isn't that more consistent\h\h

328
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:17,040
with a weather balloon and where the hell did the\h
army air force get the disc that they admitted in\h\h

329
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:24,160
their original press release was recovered why did\h
they put out a press release saying a flying disc\h\h

330
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:30,480
had been recovered which of course the media then\h
interpreted as a flying saucer why would they i\h\h

331
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:37,600
mean to this day i don't know i will tell you that\h
uh stan friedman who was uh the not only he's the\h\h

332
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:43,840
man who broke the story uh a famous ufo researcher\h
who passed away a couple of years ago he thought\h\h

333
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:54,320
that there were two crashes and that the uh press\h
release was really a a way to say look over here\h\h

334
00:37:54,320 --> 00:38:00,480
while they were still cleaning up over there uh\h
that's what stan always believed um why would\h\h

335
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:05,440
so that's that's the only good reason i could\h
say they could do it unless it was just simple\h\h

336
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,080
we don't have a policy for this so we've got one\h
so we're going to talk about it what do you think\h\h

337
00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:16,080
well why couldn't it be what the us air force\h
subsequently claimed it was when they came out\h\h

338
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:21,840
with their third i think explanation out of the\h
floor that they've given so far because they have\h\h

339
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,360
they've tied themselves up in knots\h
they've admitted that they've lied\h\h

340
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:30,240
over the years but the reason that they've\h
given for lying about roswell originally\h\h

341
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:37,200
was just tensively because what they were trying\h
to conceal was that it was a secret spy balloon a\h\h

342
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:42,400
mogul balloon that was being used to\h
fly high in the atmosphere to recover\h\h

343
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:48,160
radioactivity to test for what type of\h
nuclear weapons the russians were using\h\h

344
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:55,280
now why isn't that a plausible explanation for\h
what happened at roswell well i mean okay uh on\h\h

345
00:38:55,280 --> 00:39:01,360
one level it's a plausible explanation but i think\h
you've we've we've got to go back and explain what\h\h

346
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:06,320
the us air force has actually said about this\h
over the years they as you rightfully point out\h\h

347
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:12,000
there's been four stories they've told the first\h
story was the one that they reported first maybe\h\h

348
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:17,520
they accidentally told the truth when they said\h
we've got a flying disc but that was number one\h\h

349
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:24,240
three hours later they said it was a basic weather\h
balloon and they literally posed jesse marcel\h\h

350
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:31,360
in front of all that material then and he said and\h
he and he said subsequently it was all bs and he'd\h\h

351
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:36,880
been told to lie and what he saw he certainly\h
looks like he's he's having to tell a lie if\h\h

352
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:43,200
you look at the photos and that's the man who in\h
1978 told stanton friedman all about it and that's\h\h

353
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:50,560
why friedman broke the story in 78. the third\h
explanation that the air force came up with was\h\h

354
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:58,560
oh it was a highly classified balloon that was\h
being used in the in the nuclear age to try to\h\h

355
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:05,440
um assess what the soviets were up to with their\h
nuclear weapons and then their fourth explanation\h\h

356
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:11,680
uh was that they were crash dummies but not just\h
crash dummies from 1947 but that there were crash\h\h

357
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:18,960
dummies in the 1950s uh and people had gotten that\h
confused so i'm sorry that does not sound to me\h\h

358
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:25,360
like anybody that's trying to come clean about it\h
not to mention the fact that the uh base records\h\h

359
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:31,680
for the period from 1947 through i believe\h
uh late 48 are just missing they're gone

360
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,120
i'm agnostic i'm agnostic on roswell i'm not sure\h\h

361
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:43,920
of anything other than the fact that there was\h
definitely a cover-up the us air force lied it\h\h

362
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:50,480
slide so many times and tied itself up in knots\h
its credibility is completely shot on the subject\h\h

363
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,720
okay ross i mean i'll give you that um and\h
and look i don't want to be the guy that's\h\h

364
00:40:54,720 --> 00:41:00,640
the only guy out there on the limb going roswell\h
roswell roswell i'm just saying it's a far far\h\h

365
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:06,080
better case than people have given it credit for\h
and it has been unfairly tarnished over the years\h\h

366
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:14,080
for a variety of reasons one of the people i spoke\h
to in my research for the book was don schmidt who\h\h

367
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:21,200
yes has had his ups and downs on on the subject\h
matter but but he told me about the affidavit\h\h

368
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:28,720
that he and kevin randle managed to get signed by\h
walter haute who was the public relations officer\h\h

369
00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:33,680
for the army air force base the 504th bomb wing\h
who incidentally were the people that dropped the\h\h

370
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:43,280
bomb on hiroshima and nagasaki and haute claimed\h
that he was shown by his commanding general\h\h

371
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:51,920
in the air force base later that day later that\h
week a craft a disc that had been recovered from\h\h

372
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:59,440
roswell and he claimed to his deathbed literally\h
that there'd been a cover-up didn't he well now\h\h

373
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:04,080
you struck very close to home for me i in full\h
disclosure because that's what we're about here\h\h

374
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:10,240
um i have don schmidt's book witness to roswell\h
under option and i have stanton friedman's book um\h\h

375
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:16,240
top secret magic under option both of which are\h
about the the roswell case what happened is these\h\h

376
00:42:16,240 --> 00:42:23,360
two researchers stan friedman on one side and don\h
schmidt on the other in the 90s competed to break\h\h

377
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:30,880
this roswell story and it did turn out that walter\h
hought the public information officer was uh\h\h

378
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:36,160
schmidt's top witness it did turn out\h
also as you point out in your book\h\h

379
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:43,680
that the the um the affidavit that walter hout\h
signed was signed literally on his death deathbed\h\h

380
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:48,560
and don schmidt wrote it now don\h
schmidt wrote it based on what\h\h

381
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:52,960
howard had told him he was incapable of\h
you know writing it himself at that time\h\h

382
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:57,840
but you know he signed it and and said it\h
was the real thing but here's the thing um

383
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:04,800
as like i said i don't want to go 100\h
out on that limb but i will say this\h\h

384
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:11,040
if you look at the research done by stan friedman\h
and don schmidt and his various partners they have\h\h

385
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:16,960
turned up hundreds of witnesses now is there the\h
singular witness who says okay from the beginning\h\h

386
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:21,360
this is what i did then i did this then i did this\h
and tells the roswell story maybe you won't find\h\h

387
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:27,360
that but what you will find is what i call the\h
mosaic pieces you'll find these 300 witnesses each\h\h

388
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:33,200
one filling in a different piece of the mosaic we\h
had to fly it up to wright patterson uh we loaded\h\h

389
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:40,800
it here we had somebody do this and as i said\h
i think earlier even my own father um before\h\h

390
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:47,680
he passed on i had a show on nbc called dark skies\h
that had a lot to do with roswell and my father uh\h\h

391
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:53,680
had come back from the war and uh one of the guys\h
who was in his uh army unit called him up and said\h\h

392
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:57,680
you know that show your son's doing you should\h
tell him to keep at it because i got transferred\h\h

393
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:03,920
to roswell after um the war and i got to tell\h
you it was no weather balloon we all knew it\h\h

394
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:09,280
everybody knew it it was something extraordinary\h
and it was treated as such so you know i just have\h\h

395
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:13,840
a lot of i have a lot of passion to say it's\h
not a closed case and i don't want to make fun\h\h

396
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:18,320
of them because i feel like there were a lot of\h
real witnesses that had a lot to say about it\h\h

397
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,680
you know price about two or three years ago\h
i would have scoffed and said old rubbish you\h\h

398
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:29,040
know it's just a cold war story you know people\h
have conflated secrecy that was surrounding a\h\h

399
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:38,240
legitimate cold war project but the more i talk\h
to my current sources in the us intelligence\h\h

400
00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:44,560
community and the defense community and in private\h
aerospace the more convinced i am also from the\h\h

401
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:50,880
public comments of certain people most recently\h
hal put off did an interview with eric weinstein\h\h

402
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:59,280
dropping big hints about recovered technology in\h
private aerospace i'm becoming more and more sure\h\h

403
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:08,960
of a suspicion that something was recovered in\h
that period 47 through to the early 50s possibly\h\h

404
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:14,560
multiple craft as you know in my book i talk\h
about a guy called nat kobets who was the former\h\h

405
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:20,560
director science and technology for the us navy\h
and he on his deathbed as well quite literally\h\h

406
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:27,360
gave me a statement where he talked about how he\h
was briefed into a program that the u.s government\h\h

407
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:35,680
has continued to operate where they are allegedly\h
trying to back engineer multiple retrieved\h\h

408
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:42,640
craft that's the thing i i find it i\h
find it dust my head in even saying that\h\h

409
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:49,120
because this seems preposterous i i we have all\h
traveled that distance i have traveled it myself\h\h

410
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:54,080
and i'm sure that many of the people who are\h
listening to us right now may be on that same road\h\h

411
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:58,080
where they're saying uh these guys what are they\h
smoking that doesn't seem quite right i get that\h\h

412
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:06,160
but um one of the things we should remind everyone\h
is new mexico in the 40s uh mid to late 40s well\h\h

413
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:11,440
actually during the 40s was a hotbed\h
and it was a hotbed of nuclear research\h\h

414
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,880
we all know that's where they came up\h
with the nuclear bomb where they tested it\h\h

415
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:21,600
where the research facilities were complete hotbed\h
and one of the things that you seem to be saying\h\h

416
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:27,840
about your research is is what i hear as well\h
which is the next big shoe that's going to drop\h\h

417
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:34,320
when it and it'll be a big one is crash wreckage\h
there seems to be a growing consensus among people\h\h

418
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:39,680
like put off as you said but also lou elizondo\h
who has been pretty out front about saying yeah\h\h

419
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:44,480
he's pretty sure there's crash wreckage and even\h
the new york times so if there's crash wreckage\h\h

420
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:50,800
out there then it doesn't behoove us to dismiss\h
roswell just because it's old and and it got\h\h

421
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:56,400
confused because remember the people who fought\h
world war ii were experts at disinformation that's\h\h

422
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:01,760
how they got hitler to think that they were\h
crossing at the poticalay instead of normandy\h\h

423
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:07,520
for the d-day invasion disinformation so some\h
of those same people were no doubt employed\h\h

424
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:14,000
on disinforming people about the roswell crash i\h
think it's a good case i put its credibility up at\h\h

425
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:23,680
60 70 percent i'd suggest possibly\h
more yeah you know it's funny bryce i i\h\h

426
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:30,720
as a journo investigating stuff i'm taught\h
always assume a screw-up before a conspiracy\h\h

427
00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:34,240
we actually say something slightly more vulgar\h
but for your listeners i'll say screw up\h\h

428
00:47:34,240 --> 00:47:42,640
i think you can say the real thing but i i i've\h
always thought instinctively that roswell must\h\h

429
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:49,680
have just been one of those things that just blew\h
out of all proportion but now i'm not so sure\h\h

430
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:56,960
and i'm also getting information from people from\h
all over america and indeed all over the world\h\h

431
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:04,480
talking about recovered craft yeah recovered\h
technology and it's one of those perennials that\h\h

432
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:09,680
won't go away because often there are\h
multiple witnesses to what i'm being told\h\h

433
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:17,040
and when you think about it i i guess i've\h
always been worried that it's impossible to\h\h

434
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:23,600
keep a secret like this but the irony is in new\h
mexico at that very time just a few years earlier\h\h

435
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:28,880
they kept secret the story of the atom bomb didn't\h
they though they not only kept it secret they\h\h

436
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:35,120
kept it secret for years with thousands of people\h
involved in it so yeah uh people traditionally say\h\h

437
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:40,880
yeah nobody can keep a secret well when you have\h
the ability to classify it and intimidate people\h\h

438
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:46,480
and uh you're willing to use it you can keep\h
secrets and also you could also argue that the\h\h

439
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:52,240
secret hasn't been kept that well what what worked\h
is that denial and ridicule the denial part is\h\h

440
00:48:52,240 --> 00:48:57,280
the classified part the ridicule is even when\h
you hear something like this you say it can't be\h\h

441
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:02,080
and and so again i'd go back to the road that\h
we've traveled and other people are traveling\h\h

442
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:10,720
now if the united states government in 2021 is\h
willing to admit that these craft are real as they\h\h

443
00:49:10,720 --> 00:49:16,560
did in the june 25th report then you have to look\h
at virtually everything else you're thinking about\h\h

444
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:21,920
and at least give it some credibility and ask\h
about it so when i look at the june 25th report\h\h

445
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:30,320
i don't look at 2004 going forward i look at 2004\h
going backward and say what else was happening\h\h

446
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:36,080
and maybe this is part of that big picture this\h
hidden history that's going to be uncovered over\h\h

447
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:42,480
the years to come now bryce i know we're near\h
close of show but i would be remiss if i didn't\h\h

448
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:49,440
mention that whilst everybody talks about roswell\h
being the origin story not the origin myth perhaps\h\h

449
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:55,920
but the origin story for the great modern ufo\h
era uh friends jacques valet and paula harris\h\h

450
00:49:55,920 --> 00:50:00,800
have just recently published a book called trinity\h
which suggests that there might have been an\h\h

451
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:07,760
even earlier crash of a craft that was recovered\h
shortly after the testing of the first atomic bomb\h\h

452
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:15,200
in new mexico in 1945. they do say that\h
interesting case and with witnesses no less\h\h

453
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:22,880
and they wrote a a book about it i'll i'll just\h
give you my honest opinion about that i i i think\h\h

454
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:28,160
there is a lot less evidence for the trinity crash\h
story than there is for the roswell crash story\h\h

455
00:50:28,720 --> 00:50:34,880
and even if you dismiss both of them there seems\h
to be evidence of piling up about other crashes\h\h

456
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:40,560
so again we get down to that place where again\h
a skeptical person would go why are ufos even\h\h

457
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:46,880
crashing okay that is a separate show that we\h
could do 30 minutes on why such a thing could even\h\h

458
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:53,360
happen but it doesn't i guess the reality of crash\h
wreckage and recovered materials and possibly even\h\h

459
00:50:53,360 --> 00:51:01,120
recovered working craft um doesn't rest entirely\h
on trinity and it doesn't rest entirely on roswell\h\h

460
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:07,440
there's some good cases out there beyond the two\h
i just happen to like roswell because it is so\h\h

461
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:12,080
exhaustively researched and people have\h
taken the time to interview literally\h\h

462
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:19,040
everybody who worked at roswell back in\h
the day well one thing's for sure 77 years\h\h

463
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:28,080
on bryce i think we might this year just about\h
get the beginnings of an answer but i'm pretty\h\h

464
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:33,600
sure we're coming close to the end of this episode\h
of need to know so maybe you might want to make\h\h

465
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:39,440
your clothes and we'll come back with more next\h
program okay well all i would say to folks is\h\h

466
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:45,360
uh you know journalism likes a good anniversary\h
story and that's why we focused on 1947 today\h\h

467
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:52,320
because it is 75 years that's a good anniversary\h
time 75 years since the kenneth arnold sighting\h\h

468
00:51:52,320 --> 00:52:00,800
75 years since roswell 75 years since the\h
twining memo 75 years since the u.s air force\h\h

469
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:07,280
was created in the nsa and the cia so i think\h
there's going to be some anniversary pieces that\h\h

470
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:14,400
start getting written for this summer and for this\h
year in general that may turn into investigations\h\h

471
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:21,200
and if a couple of those investigations really\h
come through we may see some powerful journalism\h\h

472
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:24,720
out of it and i i really my fingers\h
are crossed that that's what happens\h\h

473
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,600
thank you very much ladies\h
and gentlemen for listening to\h\h

474
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:36,880
this episode of need to know and we'll be back\h
with more questions and hopefully more answers\h\h

475
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:42,880
on a future episode of need to know\h
with ross coulthart and bryce zabal\h\h

476
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:49,040
and listen we want to hear from our listeners\h
our viewers uh if you have something you want\h\h

477
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:56,480
to communicate to us we're easy to find the\h
email address is contact need to know dot today\h\h

478
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:01,680
and also there's a website there need to know dot\h
today where you can go and check out all this for\h\h

479
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:13,840
yourself so we're happy to have you here remember\h
folks we can't handle the truth people get ready

480
00:53:34,720 --> 00:53:41,840
tell me

481
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:55,840
you know

482
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:09,680
we must wait our turn

483
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:23,840
too much

484
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:52,000
tell me

485
00:54:52,000 --> 00:55:05,840
to know

486
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:33,840
mankind you say things will\h
fall apart no more fears

487
00:55:48,560 --> 00:56:01,840
now

488
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:15,840
we see the future

489
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:46,160
this is the plan we say

490
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:57,840
we need to know